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Post by sweeney on Apr 21, 2009 13:22:48 GMT
Thanks Kemo! Thanks for the info. I dont remember any of these guys cutting too much ice on the world stage. All great teams of the past and present had one thing in common, they had hatchet men at the centre of their defence and in midfield Arsenal: (Peter Story, Adams, Dixon. Etc:) Liverpool: (Tommy Smith, McMahon, Souness Etc:) Leeds: ( They had them in every position in the 70s) When Ferguson joined United this breed of player was not there. The first thing he did was buy Bruce and the following year Pallister. Then he bought Keane. Managers today (Not them all) would do themselves and the clubs they coach a great favour by looking at what made these sides great and follow suit. Arsen Wenger in particular. Ferguson has always had this style of player. I dissagree with your stance on Ferdinand. He is a very average defender and has not the qualities of either Bruce or Pallister. Ferguson knows this that is why Vidic was brought to OT. I will admit Ferdinand is a much improved defender since his Arrival................Waiting on more enlightment............Gerry.
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kemo
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Post by kemo on Apr 21, 2009 14:03:59 GMT
As George says, Sir Matt Busby rebuilt his team after disaster from mainly the British Isles, a team that has given Man Utd the status it has today....Fergie is leagues below this great man, no question. Not at all Gerry, far from the truth imo. "the Adonis" took a youth team that I seen in the milk cup here in Ireland and transformed them into league and European Champions in such a short period. His record is remarkable, to say that money put him were he is today is wrong. You can only play 11 players on a field at any one given time. I'd say he spent wisely, in comparisn to the likes of Liverpool who I'd say if you calculate their outgoings on transfers over the past decade they probably have spent as much if not a heck of a lot more than we have. "Did it buy them success?"a couple of champions leagues would be traded down at Anfield tomorrow for that much sought after FA Premier league believe me. It's very hard to compare past and present managers, I really don't think it is possible, How would Sir Matt deal with agents, transfers, sponsorships, etc. He found it very hard restraining one of the greatest players ever in Best. It's a no contest trying to even compare the managers of old to the present. |
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kemo
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Post by kemo on Apr 21, 2009 14:10:21 GMT
Thanks Kemo! Thanks for the info. I dont remember any of these guys cutting too much ice on the world stage. All great teams of the past and present had one thing in common, they had hatchet men at the centre of their defence and in midfield Arsenal: (Peter Story, Adams, Dixon. Etc:) Liverpool: (Tommy Smith, McMahon, Souness Etc:) Leeds: ( They had them in every position in the 70s) When Ferguson joined United this breed of player was not there. The first thing he did was buy Bruce and the following year Pallister. Then he bought Keane. Managers today (Not them all) would do themselves and the clubs they coach a great favour by looking at what made these sides great and follow suit. Arsen Wenger in particular. Ferguson has always had this style of player. I dissagree with your stance on Ferdinand. He is a very average defender and has not the qualities of either Bruce or Pallister. Ferguson knows this that is why Vidic was brought to OT. I will admit Ferdinand is a much improved defender since his Arrival................Waiting on more enlightment............Gerry. TBH sweeney, both Rio and Vidic compliment each other in the way both Pallister and Bruce did back in the day. Vidic was found out in our game against Liverpool as Rio wasn't playing. I do feel both players have a lot of strengths, Vidic with his agressive and dog like manner inwhich he plays the game, Rio with his calm and controlled approach and the way he can read a game. I think both are exceptional defenders in their own unique style. Both can lack stability when the other is not on the field. |
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Post by sweeney on Apr 21, 2009 14:35:14 GMT
Just a final thought!! To all who would say that Matt Busby was a greater manager than Ferguson I will say this...... Success is judged on success. Sir Matt managed the United side for 25 years. In that time he won five Division One titles, two FA Cups, five Charity Shields, and one European Cup..... Contrast this with Alex Ferguson's Record.... He has been in charge at Old Trafford for 23 years. In that time he has won 10 Premier League titles,
5 FA Cups, 3 League Cups, 8 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup,
1 Intercontinental Cup, 2 Champion League Trophies, and are the present No:1 Club in the World having won The FIFA Clubs World Cup..................Imagine all this from a Gunners Fan.....The envy is consuming me as I write this thread............Thank's all for your constructive comments.................Gerry
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Post by weegeo on Apr 21, 2009 18:50:11 GMT
Your right of course `success is judged on success`but does success make you a great or greatest manager. Now there`s a thought to ponder over i thought we were talking about the greatest manager, SAF was lucky to be able to go abroad and spend on already established players and he did this when he saw his team start to wilt where are the young players he was bringing on then----- answer no were in sight:
weegeo--------------booting Fullerton in to touch lol
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Post by Tubbs on Apr 21, 2009 19:22:52 GMT
Quite right George, he was lucky to have all good players in the youth team....Stan Laurel could of managed them. ;D He is a poacher who poaches players who have already established themselves as good, "Oh thats no probs...we'll get the cheque book out". He is not unique at this, that is the way football has gone. He was scared out of his skin when Malcolm Glazer took over until he was assured that big money would be made available. Once again....a great manager, but not the best ever. Sweeney mate, i reckon you are the only Gunners fan to support Man U. ;D ;D (only kidding....a great topic you started)  You are quite right about Leeds having hatchet men all over the field....we were feared, and we were the best!!! The only thing the gunners fractured was their hairstyles in the 70's. ;D Tubbs.....pooling his money with weegeo to buy Norman Hunter for the Midi Hangout 5-a-side tournament. |
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Post by doricvision on Apr 21, 2009 20:11:12 GMT
Sir Alex Ferguson The Greatest Football Manager to date ,Fact Undisputed.
Bigmike
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Post by weegeo on Apr 21, 2009 22:06:12 GMT
Ahem pardon me but just how did you come to that conclusion?? I hope it wasn`t on his trophies collected!! that would make him an exceptional manager but not the best.
In our business when you think of all the 1 hit wonders that made no1 in the charts did that make them the greatest!! no it just made them lucky
weegeo----------------Giving Tubbs 30bob to get the legend that is Hunter lol but not the crocodile
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Post by Tubbs on Apr 22, 2009 7:46:49 GMT
In our business when you think of all the 1 hit wonders that made no1 in the charts did that make them the greatest!! no it just made them lucky Exactly George!!  All the "Yes" camp are Man U fans or closet Man U fans, to disregard the past legends of management the world has seen is bordering on the ridiculous.  C'mon lads, wake up to yourselves!!  |
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kemo
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Post by kemo on Apr 22, 2009 8:35:47 GMT
We are back on then lads, I thought this was concluded after sweeneys Jerry Springer like reflection yesterday. I think Tubbs and George do make a lot of valid points between them (Not one bit of Jealousy shown Lads, fair play to you) ;D I still think that football has moved on from the 60's and 70's on and off the field of play. Now to say that anyone such as Stan Laurell could've won the league with that team of youngsters is just a foolish statemnet, taken that a one time Captain of an exceptional Liverpool team stated that "he would never do it with Kids". I think guys we have to understand that in 1994, the Scholes, Beckham, Nevilles and the Butt among others were unknown youngsters Fast forward 15 years and Scolesy is making his 600th league appearance tonight for the mighty reds, one of the true stars from that era. A one club player, modest and loves to play football. A true Legend of the game and one of my all time favourite players alongside Ryan Giggs. They were brought througy a very successful United accadamy, so a lot has to be said for SAF appointments internaly aswell as externaly. Lads this debate could go on for ever, The reason why I have added to this topic is that I have been a United supporter from the mid 80's. Born in 1977 I watched a team that I knew had one of the greatest histories of the game, a family team a team that if you talked about them all over the world people understood. After SAF appointment it took time but given the time we have reaped the benefits as the most decorated club from my era. Is he the greatest manager ever? He's most definitely in my opinion up there. |
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Post by Tubbs on Apr 22, 2009 11:19:39 GMT
(Not one bit of Jealousy shown Lads, fair play to you) ;D Now to say that anyone such as Stan Laurell could've won the league with that team of youngsters is just a foolish statemnet, Ok mate, maybe not Stan.....But Oliver Hardy...deffo!! ;D Nor would i ever be jealous Kieran mate...been going to Elland Road since i was 5 years old, been a season ticket holder from the age of 16 to the present day (even though i might only get to 4 or 5 home matches some seasons, what with living in Ireland now). I can see you are a passionate Man Utd man and true supporter...but around 50% of people who follow them globally this year will probably be wearing Liverpool jerseys next year if they should win the league, even Roy Keane had no time for them. The reason they are the most famous club is because of the Busby years plus the very sad happenings in Munich. Now Fergie is gonna be a hard act to follow, but success will remain because of the funds they have, as it will at all the big clubs with bottomless pits of cash. My final word....he would be in my Top 10......maybe!! |
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kemo
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Post by kemo on Apr 22, 2009 12:07:21 GMT
but success will remain because of the funds they have, as it will at all the big clubs with bottomless pits of cash. My final word....he would be in my Top 10......maybe!! Here's my last word. SAF created a template, a pattern a way of winning, It was up to the other clubs to follow suit. A lot of them tried and failed. I remember listening to Ian Wright (who I have to say was one of the greatest strikers the premier league has seen) stating exactly my remaks above. He stated that every other team had a chance to follow that pattern but failed, he echoed the comments that SAF was amongst the greats. So I leave you with this thought, and thank you all for taking part in this excellent toopic, Is there a greatest Manager? Is there a greatest footballer? Is there a Greatest at all? Wasn't it Arthur Guinness that said "the race for quality has no finish line" All the best! |
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Post by weegeo on Apr 22, 2009 16:03:10 GMT
At last a difinitive answer has come to light [mind you it took a lot of prodding lol] SAF will be up there was said and i agree that he would [be up there that is] and it`s true `Quality has no finish line` and the reason is quality endures and thats why SAF is successful HE inherited quality with the MU machine. I think the template was always there and i have no reason to be jealous i have been a Chelsea fan all my life and will contnue to do so.
weegeo-------------- Sitting down with Tubbs for a lot of Arthur Guinness wisdom lol
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Post by sweeney on Apr 22, 2009 16:40:49 GMT
There is a saying that goes "" When you find yourself in a hole stop digging"" I tried to finish this thread yesterday having made what I would call, constructive comments on the Greatness as a manager of Alex Ferguson and why I think he is the greatest ever.. I showed through each thread I posted my reasons for taking this stance . His ability with money (Man U) and no money (Aberdeen) His ability to get the best out of players. (Man Management) His ability to deal with situations on and off the field ( Rooney Ronaldo Beckham Etc: Etc:) His resolve to make sure that no one is bigger than the club (Keane Ince Whiteside McGrath Sharpe Kinshelsis Etc: Etc:) Last and most importantly to get players that have won every trophy there is to be won and some, more times than they could count to stay hungry.....Look at the many Premiership winners medals the likes of Scholes and Giggs have won, yet fifteen years later they still play every game they get a chance to play in as though was their first appearence and were playing for their place. No matter what you might or might not think this is down to Ferguson. I have went over the threads posted and I cannot find one constructive comment from the Two Ronnies or anyone else as to why Ferguson is not the greatest of all time. There is a lot of sniping at his attitude, but no genuine arguments put forward as to make me change my mind... The so called great Leeds side of the seventies under the so called Great Don Revie for all their greatness won 2 first division titles and 1 FA Cup, and I think, a couple of League Cups.. Not a lot to show for 13 years in charge and it took Armfield not Revie to take them to a European Cup Final against Bayern Munich. ""Imagine"" If Ferguson had had that side. Maybe George can enlighten Old Sweeney as to what quality Ferguson inherited when he came to Manchester? While we are on the subject George again tell this mere mortal who loves football and admires talent at every level, for all Abromavich's money why is he still playing catchup to Ferguson. If there was a better manager on this planet than SAF Abromavich would have him at Chelsea. Look again at my opening line of this post and do yourselves a favour....Smash the shovels and close the Thread...............Gerry.
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Post by Tubbs on Apr 22, 2009 17:56:48 GMT
Well, firstly sweeney, this thread will stay open as long as anyone wants to contribute to it, it is a debate, and my opinions are just that, as yours are, there is no winner or loser. George and myself have signed off with a bit of humour, which we do on most topics to lighten the mood, so can we have less of the jibes like "the Two Ronnies" thank you. So lets debate, and not dictate. Its starting to border on Flaming, and we don't want that. Kieran, your closing comments are correct mate, their is no greatest.....the wisest words of the whole topic, well said mate. tubbs........stacking all the shovels in the corner with weegeo. |
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