K.O'd by Kurzweil.

[JohnG]

Hi guys and gals (sorry!)

Was just looking around and wondering whether if I threw all the pennies I'd saved up into a pile whether I could afford to buy myself a nice keyboard to really learn on? And if I could what would I buy?

I'd thought long and hard about this. We already have a rather ancient Yamaha PSR something-or-other, and I have a tiny Edirol PCR-M30, which is just a MIDI controller. But these are, in fact, just toys. At least IMO.

I thought, yea, if I'm going to buy something, spend a bit of money on it (but not outrageous, maybe 2k limit) and get something more like a Stage Piano. Full 88, but with mod and pitch bend wheels. Must have a really good piano action, not too heavy, maybe a halfway house between a synth and a real piano. But key some really good, inspirational sounds on board (I mean REALLY GOOD) one's that make you go "WOW!" and want to play more. #1 good piano, Rhodes, some Clavs #2 good woodwinds, some good organ sounds preferably with drawbars (eh!) #3 two or three good bass sounds #4 some good strings. etc.

Probably no on board speakers (too much of a compromise usually). And maybe a workstation too, Able to record and playback a few MIDI tracks as backing while the lead is played live over the top. Some onboard effects would be nice, plus a good synthesiser but not essential.

Looked at many Yamaha ones and was quite impressed, had a good troll through the Roland ones and a few others too and again was "quite impressed". But nothing really grabbed me by the nuts (my apologies if I offend, but I think you know what I mean) ... until, that is I stumbled upon Kurzweil, and more specifically the PC3X (Performance Controller).

Now, strangely, I'm not going to say a word more about it, I'm just going to point you to their web site and leave to you tell me I'm talking BS if you think so.

Here we go:
www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product.php?id=37
Take a listen to the sounds in the audio tab. Let me know what you think. Also have a search in you tube for various demos of the product, I think you may like what you hear, could be wrong though.

I think I'll need to save a few more pennies though!

As usual just my 2d. worth.
JohnG.

[allegro]

Hi there john, I have always liked kurtweil for their piano sounds but not for much else i'm afraid. As you know it's horses for courses with workstations, you need to find a dealer that has one in stock and spend some time on it. It is very difficult to get a good feel from the short demo's but by the sound of the drums they are on a par with yamaha :ie; not very good and no grunt, no good for live performances. Also, the screen could do with being larger and without seeing one it's difficult to see the lay-out for ease of use as some stations look good but not very pracital to use .Unfortunately i am looking at it through the eyes of a korg user :ie: PA1X AND PA2X PRO which are brilliant for live gigging. The Kurtweil does not appear to have the quality or quantity of editing facilities that the korgs have and i can't see the facility for installing an internal hard drive.As you say john just my 2d worth.
cheers allegro (geoff)
HERE IS SOMETHING YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SEEN ON THE NET
At first sight, the PC3x looks like a modest upgrade from the PC2x, but when you start to list the differences, it's clear that the new model is a more significant step forward than it appears. The doubling of the number of voices is important, not because you can press 128 notes simultaneously, but because polyphony gets eaten up quickly if you use some of the more advanced facilities. Likewise, the Program memory has four times the capacity of the earlier model, which is much more in line with modern synthesisers. Elsewhere, the increased number of faders make it much more useable as a MIDI controller, as well as making the KB3 come alive in ways that were not possible on the PC2x. As for the screen how anybody could hope to program a PC2x on a 2 x 20-character screen was beyond me, and while the PC3x's 240 x 64-pixel screen is still a long way behind the competition, it's a move in the right direction.
The inclusion of USB (which handles MIDI as well as voicing data and OS upgrades) and the addition of a slot for xD cards are major enhancements. The PC3x also offers two internal expansion slots but, as yet, there is nothing for us to insert into these. In the past, Kurzweil have proven to be quite slow in developing their expansion options, so I wouldn't hold my breath for these.
As a player, I like the improved sound selection methods, but much more significant are the voicing improvements. The PC2x was only shipped with the Orchestral block as standard in the USA, and the Classic Keys ROM was always a chargeable upgrade. With both included on the PC3x, it's a better instrument. Add the improvements to VAST and the effects processors, and it's an even bigger step forward. But, for me, the most valuable improvement is the inclusion of multitimbral effects in Setup mode. If I want to flange my pianos and chorus my horns, I expect my synth to let me do so.
Ultimately, however, you buy a Kurzweil for its feel and sound and, like its predecessors, the PC3x is a pleasure to play. Sure, it lacks performance niceties such as joysticks or X/Y pads, but the keyboard is pleasant, the piano sounds are more than usable, the orchestral sounds are superb and the vintage keyboard sounds are great. Add an optional breath controller and the plug-in ribbon controller, and the PC3x is starting to look like a very competent performance synthesiser. The only real disappointment (other than the omission of sample playback) is KB3, which I wouldn't want to use as my sole organ emulator. And, while the factory-programmed VAST Programs lack the 'wow factor' of many workstations, this is a good thing: it's much better to have a huge library of useable sounds than ones that grab your attention in a shop, but which you would never use in a piece of music.
Conclusions
I haven't spent any time explaining the inner workings of the PC3x's synthesis engine — its filters, amplifiers, modulation sections and so on because it is, well vast. Instead, I've tried to convey the flavour of the instrument: its strengths and weaknesses. But what you now want to know is, should you consider buying one? There are some excellent stage pianos on the market (the latest Rolands come to mind, as well as the superb Kawais) and advanced MIDI controller functions are available on quite modest keyboards. In addition, the PC3x is not the world's greatest Hammond emulator, and its virtual analogue capabilities are (at best) overstated. But despite this, I really like it because it makes me want to play. I just hope that the company attends to its omissions and bugs because I'm seriously thinking about buying one. 0

[JohnG]

Thanks very much for that, Allegro,

I'd taken a look at the Korgs and been well impressed with them. True the editing facilities are probably much better to get at on the bigger screen, but the Kurzweil comes with a pretty good editor that runs on a PC or Mac that lets you get right down into the nitty gritty of the m/c. As I'm used to doing that with my GSA Editor for the 8850 and also the editor for the PCR-M30, I thought it would be handy to continue the trend.

I can't see myself doing detailed edits at a gig, if I ever get to the point of performing with the k/b on stage. Just selecting voices.

True, no hard disk, and that's a minus, but it takes xD memory cards, albeit up to only 256MB, but I reckon that should be enough for me, and it's 88 key which is a bonus when messing with the latest VIs which have their keyswitches in the lowest octave, not that 76 wouldn't probably be enough anyway.

And only 16 channel. I think the Korgs are 2 x 16 aren't they. How often, I wonder, do you need or use 32 channels?

And ... the Kurzweil is a 1000 cheaper than the Korg, which brings it into my price range, just. I'm going to try to pop over to the MusicStore in Cologne after my hols and try a few out ... if I have any of my stack of pennies left.

We'll see!

JohnG.

As a P.S. added the next day, I thought I'd put these two reviews into the post.
www.keyboardmag.com/article/kurzweil-pc3-ultimate/dec-08/90823
and
emusician.com/elecinstruments/review-kurzweil-music-systems-pcx/
for anyone that's interested.