custom made backing tracks

[doricvision]

;D Karaoke version that well known backing track mp3 specialists have provided a new service where they are supplying custom made backings for mp3's Just go to the home page and then click on Custom Tracks[new]
From there you can select from a variety of tracks where you get a sample where you can delete instruments just as in midi as well as lead and backing vocals. the prices are only about $1.99 a track .
The catalogue for this service is growing daily and dare I say it , Is this the end of Midi
Check it out Bigmike

[JohnG]

End of MIDI? Nah, not likely.

How do you think many films are scored these days?
With a full string orchestra? Actually not any more. Though, of course, some still do.

No, They use a sequencer, Pro Tools, Cubase or some such other high end package, and then they buy a set of orchestral samples, or probably several, and sequence the whole thing using multiple VST instruments.

The Platinum orchestral set from East West occupies 113 GB (no, I haven't made a mistake with the figures) of disk space and samples every instrument from pp through p, mp, mf, f, ff and every single note is a separate sample. All the different articulations are sampled e.g. legato, pizzicato, marcato and so on. Release trails are sampled too. The Platinum set also includes the samples from three different mic positions (BTW this isn't an advert) close, front and hall reverb. And so on. I think you're probably getting the picture by now!

In fact, so big is the sample library that the recommendation is that it is spread across four PCs (or MACs) which are connected together across a high speed LAN. One machine actually hosts the sequencer and the others slave to it.

They (East West) have produced sampled choirs too as well as "Voices of Passion" together with a piece of software that allows you to enter phonetics and the voices will sing whatever you want them too. Again the notes they sing are driven by MIDI.

The reason I have been so quiet for quite a while is that I bought the Silver version of the EWQLSO a few months back and I have been learning to sequence all over again using SONAR and Cubase.

Silver is less than a tenth the size of Platinum, is 16 bit, as opposed to the Platinum's 24 bit, and can be run on a reasonably powerful laptop. But it still blows the socks off any sound module that I have ever heard.

When I have finally mastered the techniques I shall post an mp3 file so that you can hear the results.

Suffice it to say that if you have been to the pictures recently to watch a movie, or bought a DVD of anything recent then you probably have, quite unwittingly, been listening to a MIDI produced sound track.

MIDI's gonna be around for a lot longer yet!
Thank goodness.
JohnG.

P.S. If anyone is interested I can post a bit more. And they don't only do orchestral sounds. Check out www.soundsonline-europe.com/
Oh, and they ain't too cheap either.

[freeway]

Hey Bigmike.. ........Id love to know how they manage to do that with the audio trax The seperating of the trax is great you can then decide which trax you want to use but the only prob I see there is ...unless your one of the lucky ones who can sing in the original key...is the transposing of the songs beyond 2 semitones +or - as it affects the tempo of the song as well as the overall quality......still a clever new development in the world of backing trax.thanx for sharing this info.............regards
Barry

[sweeney]

Good point Barry! Although this feature could be in the in the infant stages. Who knows. If they are at a stage where they can seperate tracks and edit them in the MP3 format what's next..........Saying all that the standard of midi has reached levels that no one could have imagined 12/15 years ago..........Johns post says it all.....With that class of sequencing and samples that are out there I think the sky's the limit and with the conversion to MP3/ audio formats tools ready available for free why would we take a step backwards. Although Bigmike's is interesting as it shows us that the world of music technology is still evolving............Long may it l;ast.........Gerry.

[JohnG]

C'mon the pair of you, it isn't possible to do that in mp3 format... yet! Doing that is like trying to recreate the cow and the potatoes out of a cottage pie!

They make a MIDI, then record it to wav format with whatever tracks you don't want muted.

It only takes a moment to mute a track, then re-record it as usual and reduce it to mp3.

If they wanted to, they could use the transpose feature in any half-reasonable sequencer, and record it in whatever key you want. Crikey I can do that sort of thing in a couple of minutes. It really isn't rocket science. Send me a MIDI, any one you like, and I'll transpose it up or down to what you want, and record it to mp3 (tell me what resolution you'd like 128k, 192k, 256k, whatever) with whatever combination of tracks you want muted or active. AND I'll do it on my old laptop 750MHz CPU, 256MB RAM running Win2k.

Let me know whether you want Roland VSC samples or to put it through my external Yamaha MU1000 and back via the digital loopback facility. This is late 90s technology, 10 years old now!

The point is "you could do it too!" Not how clever (or not) I am.

Long live MIDI. Here for more than the short haul. ;D
Already clocking up more than a quarter of a century. ;D ;D ;D

All the best,
JohnG.

[freeway]

Thanx for that John... ...they sure dont sound like midi files converted to mp3 to me and Ive converted 100's of good quality midis and theyve never sounded like that esp the guitars but what do I know ;D not gonna disagree with you on this one .....was thinking maybe it was too good to be true I suppose...... Cheerz Barry

[JohnG]

Hi Barry,

Maybe they're using the East West sampled guitar libraries (fab four) VSTi, or a similar product. As you say fantastic sounds! But still controlled via MIDI. Mute the track you don't want, bounce down to a stereo audio track (a few minutes) in SONAR or Cubase, then render the wav to mp3 (another coupla minutes) and Bob, as they say, is your uncle. Another dollar earned!

Take yourself over to here:
www.soundsonline-europe.com/Quantum-Leap-Goliath-pr-EW-176.html
or this one:
www.soundsonline-europe.com/product.php?productid=EW-173
or here:
www.soundsonline-europe.com/Fab-Four-Virtual-Instrument-pr-EW-170.html
and take a listen to some of the demonstrations. I guarantee you'll be knocked out.
This last one is my favourite, "blackberry fields" forever.
All, of course, made using MIDI sequences.
Three cheers for MIDI. ;D
JohnG.

[levi2]

Just to let you know if you render a midifile to wav in bandinabox you have the option to render all tracks seperate so when its done you will have a wav file with all inst then you youll have seperate wavs of each inst you can then load each track into a sequencer like a midi and alter each one seperate ie reverb chorus volume etc etc then convert to mp3

[ziggy]

I think everyone is over complicating this, Karakoe version tracks are recorded "in house" with their own musicians (see their "about" page), since they have the masters, they don't need to remove tracks from the mp3, the just record it with out certain tracks.

[mercury]

Hell! Some of those Symphonic Orchestra demos are absolutely stunning! And that's through my crappy lappy speakers too!

[doricvision]

This just proves to me that we are priviliged to have someone like John amongst us who it appears is light years ahead of most of us. I think Ziggy has hit this on the head as to how Karaoke Version is doing it but nevertheless I think it is a handy tool in that you can kill whatever instrument you play. It is also handy if the key is not your key as you can remove the backing vocals .I usualy then put it thro Karafun to get the correct key for myself then I can put on my own backing vocals.
The Musically challenged Bigmike

[JohnG]

Didn't know BIAB had that facility, Levi, so thanks for that.

Yea, Mercury, stunning is the word. You can see why I decided to go for the Silver library. Most of my sequencing is for my wife, who is an operatic mezzo-soprano, so my output is all classical, Bach, Mozart, Dvorak, Puccini, Verdi and so on. Sometimes upward of 30 MIDI tracks to get all the different articulations of the instruments. Now with EWQLSO I can load a "master keyswitch" sample library and use notes outside the normal range of the instrument to switch samples on the fly in the same MIDI track. So I can jump from legato playing, to alternate up / down bow, to pizzicato and so on just by adding a note e.g. C#0 then D0 then D#0 to change the sample being played. I can also do things like cross fading between two samples using the mod wheel. Only problem is it's a steep learning curve, but the results are well worth the effort.

Hadn't read that Ziggy, so they just have to do one recording laying down the tracks separately, and then master to stereo with various audio tracks muted.

In fact there are so many ways of doing it. If they have their own live musicians that's probably one of the best ones. But I notice that they are also offering transposition up and down 2 semitones. So after one good take they are probably using a good piece of audio processing software to transpose both up and down whilst keeping the timing identical. But then they could equally as well do that using MIDI, as well as changing micro tunings.

I see with the latest version of Sonar (or was it Cubase) you take the audio track from the singer, correct the slightly out of tune notes, reduce the vibrato, and so on literally at the click of a mouse.

And lastly, if any of you are seriously into sequencing and want the last version of SONAR (version 7, not the current one version 8), the top-of-the-range Producer edition, then MusicStore Cologne has an amazing offer on it for only around 130 Euro. The list price for version 8 is 499 Euro and they're doing it for 349. Just thought one or two of you might like to know. I couldn't resist it, and even though I can't really afford it, I just had to have a copy at that price. Good thing I did that 2 day course for the ministry a couple of weeks ago AND got paid for it a week later.

Look here:
www.musicstore.de/en_EN/EUR/Cakewalk-SONAR-7-Producer-Edition-/art-PCM0007136-000
I've used them a few times in the past for various bits of hardware and software and their service to date has been top notch. I understand their export service is equally as good to other parts of Europe.

Best regards,
JohnG.

[rainbow]

I've been reading this thread with interest ... you've started something here BigMike ;D
As I've posted before, I can make my own custom made backing tracks in GarageBand by importing a midi file and making an arrangement and either deleting or simply muting certain tracks, can then render the file to mp3 via iTunes and a program called Switch which converts the iTunes file to mp3 and I can redo each of these in any key quite easily if need be ... and I was really quite pleased with the results. Then along comes John Gee and introduces me to East west Quantum Leap and I've been on their site all day listening to demos and watching tuition vids and I have to say that I'm completely blown away by the quality of these sounds and excited about the possibilities, not least because both GarageBand and Logic and Mac OSX are suitable host DAWs and operating system respectively. It kind of puts my current efforts in the shade by comparison
Currently I'm experiencing an acute attack of GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) and am lusting after the Complete Composer Collection, followed, when funds permit, by the Fab Four option
Now, I'm seriously considering putting the kids and any spare music equipment on e-bay to fund this gig. Cheers John ;D ;D ;D

[freeway]

Ya I agree Graham been up half the night also mesmerised by these unbelievably fantastic real sounding demos and being a big Beatles fan myself think maybe the Fab Four Collection will be on my Xmas shopping list . .......a minefield of information is our John ......now if only I was an accomplished guitar or keyboard player the possibilities would be endless ;D ah well make the most of what we got I suppose eh... ....Cheerz John

[JohnG]

Fantastically real is what they sound, is because that is what they are.

Tens of thousands of samples of instruments played in all sorts of ways. For a violin, up bow strokes as well as down, played at the end of the bow or at the neck, near the bridge or further away, hard attack then soft sustain, pizzicato, marcato, martele, spiccato, col legno, sordino, etc. at many, many different dynamic levels, and individual samples of every note through the instrument's range, plus release trails (the sound of the instruments reverb in the hall after the note has finished playing.)

Let me give you both a warning before you jump in with both feet, learnt the hard way.

The new MIDI techniques you will have to learn to get the most from these sample sets are probably at least a step further than those you already have. But I don't doubt that you can acquire them.

You will need to be able to make good use of the mod wheel and controller #11, expression, in real time or as inserted MIDI events. You will need to be able to edit MIDI files to quite a complex level to get the best results, but you may already do that.

You will need to know your musical terminology, about articulations, I've outlined some above. You will need to understand, to some extent, the terminology of musical dynamics too e.g sforzando etc. but again you may already know that. The terms are explained briefly in the accompanying manual but they aren't there as a learning resource.

For most of them you will need a fairly powerful PC, let me suggest at least a 2GHz core 2 duo, 3GB RAM, and a pair of 7200rpm drives, the WD caviar blacks are good ones. And Win XP pro SP2. Especially if you are going to put a major library on it like the Complete Composer's Edition. (I'd like to buy that too but It's just too much for me at the moment.) I really, really, REALLY want Symphonic Choirs and Voices of Passion.

Let me suggest a more modest investment initially, you'll find, orchestrally, that the Silver Edition is likely to place quite enough strain on your MIDI abilities at first, and it's not such a lot of money that if you don't succeed, it can't be ditched. Notice that the licensing doesn't allow you to sell this product on. It is all protected by an iLok key and you have to go through a process of downloading the product authorisation to the key before you can use the library. Actually not too difficult.

However, having rung the alarm bells, let me say that now I have overcome all the difficulties of setting up the DAW PC and software, understanding initially how Kontakt (from NI) works, and getting used to loading instruments and articulations into it, understanding how keyswitches work, and then moving forward to the Play version of the VSTi plugin host. Getting the latency down to 5.5ms using ASIO drivers, and then learning to bounce the output down to a stereo track ... I am absolutely delighted with the results.

BUT ... don't expect instant results, it can takes many days or weeks to get an orchestration sounding "right". Investment of time will pay off. I'm not so sure about the Fab Four product and how difficult that is to learn but I suspect you are going to have to use guitar amp effect VSTs and so forth to get the "sound" of an amp, and so on. Dunno!

Just to give you some idea of what you have to control, for one instrument, the solo violin, in the Gold Orchestra, you have 30 different individual articulations, then a set of 5 different cross fades, and 7 further keyswitch sample sets to choose from.

Here is how a few are listed:
1 Long:
SVL (Solo Violin) Exp1
SVL Exp2
SVL Exp Crec
SVL Exp P
SVL Leg Vib
SVL Non Vib Hard
SVL Non Vib Soft
SVL QLeg Exp P
SVL QLeg RR
SVL QLeg
SVL Sus Vib Hard
SVL Sus Vib Soft
SVL Sus Vib Crec Rel

2 Short:
SVL ...
etc.

Then for Contrabass:
e.g.
2 Short
SCB Col Legno RR x3
SCB Col Legno
SCB Marcato RR x3
...
SCB Martele RR x3
...
SCB Spic Marc RR x6

I really don't want to put you off, but you should know what you are getting into. This requires a huge amount of effort to master. It's really not the case that you can take an existing MIDI file and just plug it into the package. It is designed as a creative tool to a very high professional level and like any product capable of the nuances of sound available it requires a fair amount of effort to achieve it. It is NOT plug and play.

HOWEVER, if you do take the plunge, and put in the hours and weeks and months to learn how to orchestrate, the results, as you've heard, are well worth it. I've just done the upgrade from Silver with the NI sampler plugin to the Complete Gold Play Edition. It took several hours just to install all the samples from double sided DVDs to the hard disk! I spent the whole of Saturday afternoon loading it!

It really is one of the most fantastic sample sets around and well worth the money given how many thousands of studio hours must have gone into creating it.

Sorry for going on a bit!
JohnG.